Curse

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 29, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I'm struggling to see why you are running For Great Justice if you're using Locusts Fury. I also really don't see the point of using Dodge This when you can run Rigor Mortis on a Necro in your party and have him call, or micro it yourself if it's a hero.

If you want more damage why not just run Asuran Scan, and/or bring You Move Like A Dwarf to snare, kd, and interrupt targets.

Because with Locust's, "Dodge this!" and For Great Justice, with an Orders hero you can spam "Dodge This!" every single double strike.

That was actually the point of the last couple of pages, if I recall correctly? XD It isn't exactly used because it makes it all unblockable, it's used for the extra damage AND the unblockable effect

Bobby2 · Apr 29, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

That was actually the point of the last couple of pages, if I recall correctly? XD It isn't exactly used because it makes it all unblockable, it's used for the extra damage AND the unblockable effect

If only other means of getting extra damage and unblockability weren't far superior. The main selling point, I believe, was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

No you cant do all that 'voodoo' on an MS/DB sin because if you substitute [Locusts fury] + ["dodge this!"] for [Moebius strike] + [death blossom] you're not going to have a shout that ends on you almost twice a second. So you're not going to be getting all the finale buffs.
It wouldnt even work on the one sin that was spamming SY, because SY wouldnt END and trigger the finales, it would simply be renewed doing nothing.

Motivation healing.

Paul Dawg · Apr 29, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08

That's like...the whole point. (Kinda like saying: "After intense analysis, my conclusion is that the only reason why you'd ever want to eat ice cream is that it tastes yummy.")

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

So I thing the only thing the Locust Fury build has over your trusty MS/DB build is that it can gain adrenaline easier, and spam adrenal skills with more frequency.

Unreal Havoc · Apr 29, 2009, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Because with Locust's, "Dodge this!" and For Great Justice, with an Orders hero you can spam "Dodge This!" every single double strike.

What? And maintain Save Yourseleves on the party aswell?

Bill Clinton · Apr 29, 2009, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Then the rit can cast it again! More damage more better! Or put another weapon spell on you (like [nightmare weapon]).

The other advantage of [brawling headbutt] over [great dwarf weapon] is the timing: You can slap it on exactly when you want, and disrupt casters with vicious effectiveness. With [great dwarf weapon], you don't know exactly when you're going to do the KD; it just happens whenever the computer decides it should. Sloppy KD isn't as good as focused KD.

I really cant see [splinter weapon] being effective enough. It takes one second to cast, and will expire in three seconds on the assassin. That means the ritualist will get one second between recasts of splinter to do something else, and still not be able to fully maintain splinter weapon on that ONE assassin. Splinter weapon is not as effective as [great dwarf weapon] by a long shot. Let [mark of pain] deal the AoE damage. The only way I think you could bring splinter up to par would be to go mesmer/ritualist with [arcane echo] and [splinter weapon] with a lot of fast casting. But thats still a crap build with six of your eight slots having no time to use mid battle...

As for your second point, The KD isnt sloppy. It takes three quaters of a second to get off a headbutt, in which time you could have struck then twice. In which time you would have nocked them down anyway. Yes, there are ocasions where the enemy has enough time to get off a spell between knockdowns but honestly they are far and few between.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

with some of the damage buffs mentioned here I've found it averages about 125 dps on the Master of Damage. Give or take depending on just how many buffs you use. But it's infinitely sustainable dps as well, meaning as long as you're not being blocked/blinded you can flail on anything and get this damage until it drops.

In my tests I've hit 200dps fairly consistantly with peaks much higher. This was simply with:
["Dodge This!"] (+20)[Ebon Battle Standard of Honor](+15)[barbs](+14)[strength of honor](+12)[winnowing](+4) and [great dwarf weapon](+20) with vampiric weapons. These skills alone total up to about +80 damage for every attack, two hits a second jumps you up to +160 dps. Then the base damage acounts for an additional +41 dps, not acounting for critical hits which are at high chance.
Of these skills, only the [Ebon Battle Standard of Honor] is likely to suffer down time as people move away from it occasionaly (though attacking anyone already inside will ensure they do not leave because of KD's). The rest of the skills are long duration > fast recharge and easy to maintain.
It can be easily achieved with an R/Mo hero with [strength of honor] and [winnowing] (I put [infuriating heat] on this hero, too.) And another human for your [great dwarf weapon]. The rest of the damage skills [Mark of pain][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor] Can go onto yourself or other if you like, it doesnt matter.

I guess what i'm trying to say is.... dont worry about the damage. Even with the lowest of reputation title ranks, any locust in the team will still be hitting an unblockable150+ dps with fequent knockdowns to boot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

What? And maintain Save Yourseleves on the party aswell?

Yes, very easily even at lowest kurzick/luxon rank. In fact if you use [Infuriating heat] also, you can spam ["Dodge this!"] every attack, not just every double strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

If only other means of getting extra damage and unblockability weren't far superior. The main selling point, I believe, was:

Motivation healing.

You hit the nail on the head. For me, its not just the damage capabilities I've highlighted above, it is the healing capabilities. Possibly because to reap the benefits of the healing you do not need a human partner. Just grab a ranger/paragon hero with two finales and you're off. Or was that scarcasm? hehe

RadaArashi · Apr 29, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

It doesn't matters if Dodge This is unblockable or not, the point was that it could trigger the finales twice every second or so.

Bill Clinton · Apr 29, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

It doesn't matters if Dodge This is unblockable or not, the point was that it could trigger the finales twice every second or so.

Yeah, i feel like the unblockable is just a nice bonus.

_Nihilist_ · Apr 30, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

As for your second point, The KD isnt sloppy.

Bill [Great Dwarf Weapon] KD is "sloppy" because you have absolutely no control over when it triggers. With [Brawling Headbutt], you control exactly when it hits, which is not sloppy KD.

Yes, you will KD more with GDW, but quantity of KD's does not change the fact that it is a random % chance to get a KD in the first place. It's still sloppy.

Paul Dawg · Apr 30, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I'm not going to respond to everything in your post (since I would just be repeating myself), but I do want to address this suggestion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

Let [mark of pain] deal the AoE damage.

I gotta say, [mark of pain] is probably the most overrated skill in Guild Wars. It's OK for things like raptor farming, gimmick builds, and so on, but when you're seriously vanqing or going through other difficult HM areas, the value of [mark of pain] really fades. Why? Three reasons. First, most of the time, your mark is going to die in a matter of seconds, and that's the end of the skill. Second, the recharge is horrible; usually you're just sitting around waiting for the skill to light back up. Third, it causes scatter. (Really the same reasons why [mark of rodgort] doesn't work too well in the toughest areas either.)

In any case, why on earth are [mark of pain] and [splinter weapon] mutually exclusive? Bring both! Hell, on a Sabway-style N/Rt hero, you can load both right on the same bar.

Bobby2 · Apr 30, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I'm not going to respond to everything in your post (since I would just be repeating myself), but I do want to address this suggestion:

[mark of pain] never has to recharge

[assassin's promise] srsly

_Nihilist_ · Apr 30, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I like it sloppy

:O

LOL. Well said, Axel, nice counterpoint. I prefer to use my KD when I want to, not on random chance, others might not. Your response was still epic.

Paul Dawg, [Mark of Pain] is not overrated.

MoP causes scatter, but not in the way that traditional AoE causes scatter. The only enemy that runs is the one hexed with MoP, not the other mobs. If you apply it correctly, and possibly toss a snare on the hexed mob, they aren't going to be able to run.

The high recharge of MoP is the reason that the Necro using it will most likely be packing [Assassin's Promise] as the Elite on their bar. That combo is popular at the moment because of the power of MoP and the skill recharge + energy gain of AP when used correctly. It makes for MoP spam, which rips through mobs like .50cal MG rounds through wet tissue.

Unreal Havoc · Apr 30, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

If you use snares or bodyblock properly scatter shouldn't be an issue.

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 30, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

LOL. Well said, Axel, nice counterpoint. I prefer to use my KD when I want to, not on random chance, others might not. Your response was still epic.

GDW may be 'sloppy', but easily has the potential to KD-lock a foe even at low ranks. Easily with a build using Locust's fury. You can't do that with most KD skills

Xenomortis · Apr 30, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I gotta say, [mark of pain] is probably the most overrated skill in Guild Wars. It's OK for things like raptor farming, gimmick builds, and so on, but when you're seriously vanqing or going through other difficult HM areas, the value of [mark of pain] really fades. Why? Three reasons. First, most of the time, your mark is going to die in a matter of seconds, and that's the end of the skill. Second, the recharge is horrible; usually you're just sitting around waiting for the skill to light back up. Third, it causes scatter. (Really the same reasons why [mark of rodgort] doesn't work too well in the toughest areas either.)

This suggests incompetence on the part of the player, though that may not always be the case.

Mark of Pain is excellent in HM Vanquishing. With a properly setup H/H team (even with poor equipment), it's power is IMO, unmatched.
The target will die, yes. However it will only die after taking a lot of physical damage packets, which will trigger MoP an absurd number of times very quickly.

If you're running Mark of Pain, you need a very good reason not to run [Assassin's Promise] or any other skill with the potential to reduce recharge ([Air of Superiority] is very good for this).

It will sometimes cause scatter, but not before the mob loses most of their health. Often however, you will find the target will run away first (I do not know why this is, but I could make a guess). This can be dealt with by using something like [You Move Like a Dwarf], or giving cripple to your physicals if you can.
You can't compare that to [Mark of Rodgort], as that just causes degeneration, which is shit. It also depends on fire damage, which is also shit.

Paul Dawg · May 01, 2009, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I have a very good reason not to bring [assassin's promise]: I'd rather have the combination of [spiteful spirit][barbs] than [mark of pain][assassin's promise].

Anyway, the whole argument is academic because this all started when I explained why [great dwarf weapon] isn't nearly as good as [brawling headbutt] for KD. One of the reasons--just one--is that it prevents a rit from casting [splinter weapon (pve)] on you. It really has nothing to do with [mark of pain].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If you're running Mark of Pain, you need a very good reason not to run [Assassin's Promise] or any other skill with the potential to reduce recharge ([Air of Superiority] is very good for this).

Bill Clinton · May 01, 2009, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I have a very good reason not to bring [assassin's promise]: I'd rather have the combination of [spiteful spirit][barbs] than [mark of pain][assassin's promise].

Wat? You'd rather take two hexes that will suffer downtime when the target dies (which is quickly) rather than AP which gives energy and recharge by taking advantage of that dying?

Also, the KD isnt sloppy. Two attacks a second at 40% chance each hit equals an 80% chance of knockdown each second. Its better than headbutt. Your only real argument for Headbutt being better than GDW is that is cant the knockdowns cant be triggered at will. I'll show you why that doesnt matter..
If you want to interupt a specific enemy skill using headbutt, the skill must have a longer cast time than one second. It takes three quaters of a second to get the headbutt off, and unless you have amazing refelxes or spend your energy counting recharge, you're not going it get the knockdown in time. If the skill you're trying to interupt takes longer than 1 second, then you may aswell be using great dwarf weapon anyway because you'll get 3/4+ attacks off on the enemy in that time, and be pretty much guarenteed a knockdown. Not only this, but great dwarf weapon allows for the possibility to interupt one second cast skills easily AND half-second cast skills (or lower) which is almost impossible with headbutt.
Of course, none of this really matters since whoever you're attacking should be so quick they cant get off any key skills in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Anyway, the whole argument is academic because this all started when I explained why [great dwarf weapon] isn't nearly as good as [brawling headbutt] for KD. One of the reasons--just one--is that it prevents a rit from casting [splinter weapon] on you. It really has nothing to do with [mark of pain].

Its been said before: [assassins promise][mark of pain]. Constantly recharging skills, stronge AoE damage, plenty of energy. Spitefull spirit doesnt compare, really.

Bobby2 · May 01, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

Two attacks a second at 40% chance each hit equals an 64% chance of knockdown each second.

Fixed...

/12chars

Paul Dawg · May 01, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

We're starting to go around in circles a little bit, so let me try to summarize.

1. If you want to bring [mark of pain] on another character or hero (though I really don't think it's going to work on a hero), by all means do so; it has nothing to do with this build or the specific question of whether to use [great dwarf weapon].

2. I can see your point that [locust's fury] makes [great dwarf weapon] especially attractive in that you're frequently getting double strikes, therefore triggering the KD chance twice. But you've optimistically overstated the KD rate not just because you can't simply add 40% and 40%, as Bobby2 pointed out, but also because you're not ALWAYS going to get double strikes. It's going to be about 75% double strikes--so your overall KD rate is going to be just about 1/2. Yes, that's very nice, but don't forget the cost: no rit can ever cast a weapon spell on you, and several weapon spells are going to be especially effective with a fast-attacking build like this one. Compare that to [brawling headbutt], which this build is able to spam like crazy, and which does KD exactly 100% of the time. If you use [brawling headbutt] a lot and get accustomed to it, you'll find that the 3/4-second activation time isn't as much of a pain as it sounds. Seriously. You can interrupt like a demon with it.

Bill Clinton · May 01, 2009, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Fixed...

/12chars

Apologies for my poor maths. Its still very high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

We're starting to go around in circles a little bit, so let me try to summarize.

1. If you want to bring [mark of pain] on another character or hero, by all means do so; it has nothing to do with this build or the specific question of whether to use [great dwarf weapon].

2. I can see your point that [locust's fury] makes [great dwarf weapon] especially attractive in that you're frequently getting double strikes, therefore triggering the KD chance twice. But you've optimistically overstated the KD rate not just because you can't simply add 40% and 40%, as Bobby2 pointed out, but also because you're not ALWAYS going to get double strikes. It's going to be about 75% double strikes--so your overall KD rate is going to be just about 1/2. Yes, that's very nice, but don't forget the cost: no rit can ever cast a weapon spell on you, and several weapon spells are going to be especially effective with a fast-attacking build like this one. Compare that to [brawling headbutt], which this build is able to spam like crazy, and which does KD exactly 100% of the time. If you use [brawling headbutt] a lot and get accustomed to it, you'll find that the 3/4-second activation time isn't as much of a pain as it sounds.

You raise some good points, but I find your point of weapon spells rather moot. Its just not ideal to have to spam weapon skills on recharge without even having them last as long as the recharge of the skill...
Particularly [splinter weapon] is only good for its limited AoE potential. It will only strike two adjacent enemies anyway and there are much better skills to do that job. ([mark of pain] hits ALL adjacents). Whats more, [splinter weapon] does not grant additional damage to the attacks themselves whereass [great dwarf weapon] does. This is very important on a locust because every point of additional damage-per-attack adds up fast.
Also people are still overlooking the massive damage loss that is a result of having to stop attacking to cast headbutt. Likewise people are overlooking the healing lost from shouts when stopping to use headbutt.

Paul Dawg · May 05, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

You can shout while you're using [brawling headbutt]. In fact, you can shout anytime:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shout

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

Likewise people are overlooking the healing lost from shouts when stopping to use headbutt.